A Conversation with Dr. Melissa Nelson

Melissa Nelson has been a member at Christ Church for the last seven years. In her professional world, she is an outpatient therapist who's worked in a lot of different levels of care with a lot of different populations. Some of her specialties are in the realm of cognitive behavioral therapies like dialectical behavior therapy, prolonged exposure,  and response prevention.

Want to hear more? Pull up the Christ Church Mequon Podcast for our four-part Peace of Mind message series from January 2024. These sermons introduce the idea of mental health and faith working together, teach us about our own health, explore ways to deal with the health of others, and concludes with some ideas for next steps as you continue toward improved mental health.
https://podcast.christchurchmequon.org

To learn more about Christ Church, visit our website or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter.
https://christchurchmequon.org

Transcript

00:00
Hi everyone, I'm Pastor Andrew, one of the pastors here at Christ Church. And I'm Amy Eberman, the Care Director here on staff. We're so excited to bring you these amazing conversations that we've had the privilege to have with Christian mental health professionals, talking about mental and emotional health, how it intersects with our faith, and why it's important in our lives. Even though mental health is an aspect of our overall health,

00:26
As humans historically, mental health and mental wellness has not always been talked about in a healthy and constructive way in a church environment. Sadly, some people have been hurt by these damaging and unhelpful messages. Our goal with these conversations then is to provide a safe space to learn, destigmatize, and bring awareness to this important aspect of our health, all with the God-honoring Christian paradigm. We see quickly when we do this that therapy and theology do go hand in hand.

00:55
We hope that this is as helpful and life-giving for you as it has been for us.

01:02
Hi Christ Church, it's my privilege to be sitting with a dear friend, a truly dear friend, a sister in faith, and an incredibly skilled in her field, Melissa Nelson, who is a doctor. With a lot of letters behind her name, I'll allow her to introduce her specialty and her own person to you now. Melissa, would you please introduce yourself to us? Yeah. I am Melissa Nelson. I am a member at Christ Church and have been for the last seven years.

01:26
But in my professional world, I am an outpatient therapist who's worked in a lot of different levels of care with a lot of different populations. Some of my specialties are in the realm of cognitive behavioral therapies, like dialectical behavior therapy, prolonged exposure, exposure and response prevention, and a number of others. But I could get nerdy about them for a really long time. So with that in mind, I'll pass it back. So, Melissa, I have to begin by sharing a story with you, how I knew that this would.

01:55
I shouldn't be surprised at how the Spirit works out in front of us in many ways. So knowing you in your heart, I mean, you and I have had the privilege of being friends, of being truly brothers and sisters in faith, going all the way back to small group and spending time. I mean, I remember sitting and sharing with you and your husband and...

02:14
being in a small group together for a number of years, which was a real chance to get to know you and your husband and begin to see the incredible gifts that you've got and how God uses you. And I remember, okay, this is thinking back, a sermon that I gave once and you were singing, you were having an incredible gift set, you serve in a variety of ways in the church body and one of the ways that you bless this is with your voice and singing. And you caught me in the back room, and in the green room.

02:39
and I had been talking about the idea of the both and in Lutheran theology and you caught me and said that's dialectical thinking and it resonates with me and you specifically all of a sudden you just started going with your it was a great moment where I glimpsed your professional life coming into the church life it was so cool it was I don't know if you can remember it but

02:59
It was such a kindred moment of like, yeah, yeah, looking at each other and getting that faith and the importance of like our theology and therapeutic systems and ideas Go well together. They fit together. They are intrinsically connected to each other. Yeah I have a vivid memory of that and I smile when I think of it So you've had an incredible practice. You've had an incredible career so far in in terms of serving people and

03:29
your ability to speak into the Christian paradigm from both a Christian perspective as well from a therapeutic licensed professional perspective is extraordinary. So knowing that we are spending as a church body a particular attention around faith and around a sensitivity and an understanding seeking to better know and serve and love.

03:56
each other and ourselves related to our mental health. Can you just share with us anything that you would love to share with the broader Christian church just about mental health and faith and this whole space for conversation? Yeah.

04:13
I think one of the things that immediately sticks out to me when we start to enter this space and into this conversation is just how prevalent mental health is within the Bible, right? That I think so long the church and mental health have been held separate without the awareness and the recognition that...

04:36
In fact, mental health is cited hundreds of times throughout the scriptures, just potentially in different terminology. Ooh, well said. Yep. Yep. And so when you go into the Bible and into the stories of these key significant characters and into Jesus' ministry himself, there are such significant themes of our emotional health, our overall wellness, the ways in which we engage with the world. That is very reflective of mental health.

05:06
And yet, for some reason, it's been held separate. So I think one of the biggest things that is my hope is for folks to start to look for it intentionally when they read their Bibles and when they study characters. Because I think it's one of those things where we assume that we're supposed to have it all together.

05:27
as Christians and yet some of the biblical greats, right, like King David and Elijah and so many characters have their own narrative of their mental health stories at some of their.

05:42
most biblically significant moments in time. And yet there are themes of things like depression or anxiety or even trauma-related responses that are throughout stories in scripture that we somehow gloss over those aspects when we read the stories. Oh, that's so good. So I was even reading this, you caused me to reflect on my own biblical readings. Right, when we come to the scriptures, we come to the scriptures seeking

06:12
A lot of the scriptures to inform us, to change us, to shape us, to speak to us, right? And yet sometimes we can bring our own lens and our predispositions. And so what I'm hearing from you, and I think rightfully so, if we're not careful, we can parse out and deny the ability for the scriptures to edify us related to mental health and well-being. We don't read that into the scriptures or make ourselves available for the scriptures to show that to us. And yet I can't help but laugh. So literally this morning as I was doing my quiet times, I was reading some of the Psalms. I try to read Psalms all the time.

06:41
reading a Psalm of David. And it was a moment at one of his Psalms of Lament where he was struggling. And even as you're saying it, yes, I can empathize with his cries for help. And you can tell there's a mental, emotional component to what he's articulating related to his mental, emotional wellbeing, his mental health. And yet, yeah, sometimes we gloss over that. We brush past that and we diminish.

07:08
the characters in these Biblical stories that we so identify with. Yeah. And we just disregard the idea that they're struggling in their mental health and well-being. Yeah. And even beyond that, we don't just minimize or deny that they are struggling. We parse over the community that God puts around them in those moments. Ooh, that's good. Okay. So like when Elijah came to God and expressed this, honestly, at a dire to be dead.

07:34
He was at an absolute place of misery and just wanted to be done. God responded with community. He gave him people, like right, tangible people in the world to surround him and to be with him and to walk through these hard trials. David was not alone, right? He had his priestly council. He talks about his community surrounding him. And so I think that's the other piece that we tend to minimize or ignore is that somehow we have to feel all of these things on our own.

08:04
but that's not actually what happens throughout the Bible, even in the life of Jesus, when he has people in his life and people he cares deeply about, like feeling big emotions, right? Like you look at his response when Lazarus died, right? His ability to be present with the people, right? Like...

08:25
there is these aspects of the stories from a community perspective, and yet somehow we get the message that we're supposed to magically pray it away, and forget that the people around us are also part of what God gives us. That's so good, because it's so true, right? How often, how frequently, when we are struggling, particularly, I'll name, I think there is...

08:52
there is a reality that when we struggle particularly in mental health and well-being that we jump to moments of isolation and we remove ourselves We internalize a lot of those things and oftentimes we can shut down the relationships that ironically are the ones that bring us health and well-being accountability strength witness all those sort of things you're right and in the biblical examples we find Right got God healing people through people restoring people through people forgiving people through people He's using the hands and feet his people as

09:22
of his presence in his body. You know, I'm even jumping to like, I love these biblical examples, Elijah, David, Jesus himself. When Jesus is experiencing big emotions, he does that not to dissuade the moments where he retreats to prayer, he does do that, and yet how often frequently he shares in those emotions and emotional moments with his disciples. I'm thinking of the Last Supper, like gathering with the Last Supper, and up in the upper room,

09:52
because he knows what's right in front of him. And he's talking about like, the one who dips his bread with me is the one who's gonna betray me. Like he feels the bigness of what's happening. You kind of get the vibe that the other disciples are picking up on his cues. Absolutely. Picking up on the stress that he's experiencing. But he's not doing it alone, he's doing it alongside others. Yeah. As opposed to isolating himself. Okay, can we tease that out a little more? What would be your...

10:21
Yeah, give me some more of your thoughts just related about the importance of community, particularly related to mental health. Yeah, I think one of the big aspects of community is, one, the willingness to share with others without fear of response and judgment and stigma, which reflects the fact that we need to do better as a church body and not just Christ Church, but the larger Christian community at how do we respond to others who are struggling with mental health, right? But the other piece of that to me is a willingness to...

10:50
seek therapy or counseling and care, right? Like one of the names of God is mighty counselor. And yet we shy away from the possibility that...

11:02
God can be present in the world in that capacity as well. And I think that is one of those aspects that I wish the church body would lean into, is how do we respond and how do we get folks connected to therapeutic resources when they need them? As a whole, therapy is not incongruent with theology. And in fact, most secular models of therapy

11:32
And so to shy away from it, I think does us all a disservice Because a lot of the times those intense emotions Right those feelings of depression those feelings of anxiety can kind of create the cloud that keeps you from hearing God clearly Right. I think of clearly

11:50
there was a client that I worked with a number of years ago. And she came to me and did not identify her faith or her belief in Jesus as something that was an important part of her identity in any capacity. She had stepped away from all of it and came to me for depression. And she'd had pretty significant chronic depression. And as we started working together and as we started navigating, challenging some of these depressive symptoms, she came into my office one day and so clearly stated,

12:19
I need to tell you something. I'm a Christian and I have been my entire life, but I walked away from it because I stopped hearing God because of how depressed I was. And for her, like getting rid of that depressive cloud was what allowed her to clear a path clearly to the feet of Jesus, to her God, to her own faith. And I think so often we forget the fact that...

12:44
These really intense emotions make it really hard to choose facts, things like I choose faith, I choose biblical truth. But when we don't feel it, it's really hard to live that life well. And I think that aspect of mental health is another piece of it that inviting resources and tools and therapy and even medications into the room.

13:12
can make a clearer path to a closeness with God? There's so much there to unpack, because it's all so good. Yes, the richness of recognizing, we are broken people. And as broken people, we have our frailties, we have our faults, and I think myself personally, I'm passionate about the idea that somehow we...

13:37
parse out our mental emotional well-being and say, no, I can't be broken in these spaces. That somehow my emotions have to be okay and correct at all times and how I choose to manage my mental health. That somehow we are exempt from recognizing the touch of brokenness and sin and pain and suffering in these areas. We're okay with it in other spaces, but somehow not in our mental health. And so we sometimes reserve our mental health and exempt it from those resources.

14:07
from the incredible spaces that can build up, encourage, heal, and restore. Yeah. You know, if I've got a broken leg, I'm going to see the doctor. I'm going to the ER. But when we have traumatic experiences, when we have even biologically, physiologically, realities tied to our brains, to the way that our biochemistry works.

14:33
We somehow exempt that from the therapeutic and medical substantiated resources that are out there. And we say, no, I can figure that out. That's no big deal. And that just hurts, I feel so sad that this is where some people live. And as opposed to taking advantage of the healing restorative resources like therapy, like medications, both...

14:59
Individual therapy group therapy. I mean you're talking before about the importance of being in context of community that you're not alone Yeah in these struggles and sufferings It just all goes back to that statement of Theology and therapy go together. They are they are not parts to part and they actually Very much so belong together Absolutely, and some of that is taking ownership of the mental health field as well, right? Like that isn't always the case, right? So like when like the field of psychology was developing

15:29
the initial types of therapies, right? The sit on my couch and let me tell you about your dreams and things along those lines, like the Freudian and the Jungian approaches weren't evidence-based, right? And they weren't necessarily built on science and they didn't necessarily align with biblical truth. But as the field of psychology has developed over time and we have started to figure out and look at from a scientific perspective what works and what doesn't work.

15:56
the therapies that have been shown to truly be evidence-based and remain true are those that are biblically sound, which isn't a coincidence, right? Shocker. Which is also why the stigma towards mental illness doesn't just come from the church, it comes from broader society as a whole. Yes. And I think some of that is reflective of the...

16:18
the historical context of psychology, which I think is also valid in acknowledging that there were some very ineffective or hurtful or stigmatizing approaches to mental health over its development. And we're not talking hundreds of years ago, we're talking in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, right, that many individuals still have lived through and that is what they associate with therapy.

16:45
And so even understanding what does therapy actually look like, it's not necessarily coming on my couch and telling me about your childhood and your deepest fears. We're working and navigating skills for daily living. And like, OK, so we're supposed to challenge our thoughts. And the Bible even talks about like, how do we have, what do we think of? Think of these things, the healthy things. And we read those passages, and you're like, how am I supposed to do that? That's the stuff we target in therapy.

17:12
is how do I gain control over my thoughts? How do I start to sit with deep patterns of thoughts that just seem to ruminate and get stuck and do something valuable with them? And so I think there are even a lot of misconceptions and fears of entering a therapy office because it does feel like it's going to be something incongruent. And the hard reality is that there are some practitioners that might still.

17:41
use some outdated psychological practices. And so finding the right therapist, right? Somebody that is going to align with your worldview and is going to help you in an evidence-based way is important. And so I don't want to minimize the fact that.

17:59
There needs to be a measure of wisdom in reaching out for therapy or medication to ensure that you're finding a fit that does fit with your theology. It's a willingness to name the complexity of... The issue. Yeah, the issue, the history, the context, the current change, the climate. Which is also why it is the topic that most churches don't want to navigate, because...

18:29
The complexity of it is real, right? The messiness of it is real. The ability or the potential to say the wrong things and cause harm is real. The level of knowledge that it takes to understand those relationships between Freud and Jung and therapy and the church and the historical context and where we are now, like it's messy. And so the hesitancy

18:59
to bring it back into the room and back into the church is valid, right? I think that's the other piece of it. It's appropriate. It's something that has, you know, our mental, emotional health and well-being has to be handled carefully. It's to be cherished, it's to be appreciated, it's to be stewarded and not taken lightly. And so yes, the complexity of the conversation demands of us.

19:27
a careful attentiveness to how we talk and paying attention to all these aspects. You know, I think it, anytime I talk to people about mental health, I always kind of try to put the caveat out there, like I ask for grace on the front end because you don't know what people are dealing with, what their experiences have been, what their stigmas might be.

19:46
where they are coming from in their own stories. The reality of mental health being part of everybody's story to one degree or another is a reality. And yet different stories have brought people to different conclusions, different experiences. Some people have great experiences in therapeutic settings and other people less fruitful. And that just, that breaks our hearts. Knowing that it can be so positive and can be so helpful. Like you said, even in terms of skills-based, we can see in terms of the practical,

20:16
for a therapeutic setting, winning the war in your mind. Yeah. Choosing to embrace the skills and the talents and the gifts that therapeutic settings provide for us really makes a difference in people's lives. I love it. It's all so great. Yeah. Yeah. And I think...

20:41
I think the ability to really lean into some of those constructs is also a way for us to grow in our faith and in our own sense of closeness with God, right? Feeling as though I can choose what thought I want to pick up, like as if it's on a conveyor belt and examine it and put back, right?

21:09
Choosing to know like I'm feeling this emotion that is intense and can drive me to Wonderfully good things right like Jesus is anger or his feelings of betrayal or his feelings of compassion, right? Like emotions are not a bad thing

21:24
Yet to skillfully embrace them versus to feel as though they run your life. Yes, or that you are Subject to them controlled by them controlled by them Yes, yes Like those are very real skills that help us to grow closer to Christ because these are things that he modeled

21:44
And I think that's a key piece of it. And in terms of your statement of asking for a measure of grace when talking about mental health, I equate that to when an individual is struggling with mental health, it's like having a sunburn, right? Like when you have a sunburn, everything just feels so much more intense, right? Like the needles in the shower, the scratchiness of your sweater, it just feels so intense.

22:14
the comments in the world and the things around us when our emotions are the sunburn, right? So what you might be able to brush off and not think twice of or assume good intent when you are well is really hard to do when you are feeling all of the feelings in a really intense way. And so I think that awareness of am I going through life with a sunburn and what do I do with it?

22:43
Like that's a very real factor as folks are sitting and filtering the message and filtering the words coming forth of how do I make sense of this in that lens. That's so helpful, I think, in two paradigms, both for.

22:59
the person who is experience, the person bearing the sunburn to have that self-awareness of like, okay, right now, everything's just running a little bit hot. The RPM rate is a little high. I'm feeling a special measure of heightened sensitivity. And then also for the persons who might be trying to love that person. I'm thinking of siblings, I'm thinking of parents, I'm thinking of others, coworkers that you're around, the awareness that somebody might be carrying a mental, emotional sunburn.

23:29
if you will, is a way to help frame how we interact with them in a more gracious way. It leads us to love them better. We don't need to take...

23:40
their responses and their words were allowed to receive them through the lens of recognizing they're really struggling right now and they have a heightened sense of sensitivity around some things. Absolutely. And I think that's a really key part of it too because I think both sides of that coin get stigmatized in different ways, right? Like we'll hear phrases like, I always feel like I'm walking on eggshells around that person or you can't say anything to them.

24:06
Right? And so it becomes a very stigmatized approach. And on the flip side to it, right, those individuals that are walking around with a sunburn are feeling the crass minimization or oversimplifications or really ineffective, valid communication from the other parties. And so in the world of therapy, we talk about closing the gap, right? That the individuals that are struggling, we do need to minimize that sunburn. Right? Like we need to treat that. We need to.

24:34
decrease the sensitivities that are very real and are not necessarily chosen, right? And we do that through all of these extra skills. And on the flip side to it, it is important to address the environment as well, to skill up the individuals around them, whether that be family members or close friends, right? To address the ways in which we speak with another individual, to choose our words more carefully, to understand that...

25:00
a gross oversimplification as an example isn't effective and isn't helpful. And so it's one of those things where even if you feel as though you need to walk around eggshells, stating that isn't actually going to change it. But potentially helping that person along with the grace that they need in the moment is going to make your life a lot easier too.

25:25
I love what you just talked there about, this is the both hand, this is part of that dialectical thinking, this is that multiple things can be simultaneously true, this is part of the complexity. Right? And that it sounds to me like you're talking about both addressing the needs of the individual person and what their struggle is, and acknowledging it, appreciating it. One of the workspaces I would use is like validating, and I know you have incredible skill sets, and you've even taught skill workshops at Christchurch around validation and the importance of validation. Not diminishing or disregarding

25:55
but validating it and the nuance of validation being that validation is not necessarily agreement that validation is its own thing or excuse or approval right i mean it's its own nuanced reality and yet also acknowledging the role and the responsibility so right the responsibility and the role of the individual as well as the role and the responsibility the context that they're in the people that are around them yeah that the way we relate to someone who is struggling with

26:24
as well as being the person who struggles with mental health, both those things matter. And neither one can be underappreciated. Absolutely. And I think that interaction and that transaction between those two concepts reflects one of the reasons why we see such rising rates of mental illness, right? Like, are cultures' communication skills

26:48
are not what they used to be. Woefully lacking. Right? Yes. When you add in concepts of social media, when you add in the changes in social interaction, the fact that we text instead of call, the fact that we avoid that in-person interaction in a lot of settings, the fact that we even send a support message now instead of talking to a person on the phone when it's customer service. We avoid so many aspects of interaction that communication isn't the same.

27:17
And so we can't put the blame on rising rates of mental illness solely on the individuals, right? Like that's not fair or accurate. And rather, we have to look at the larger societal contexts of what's going on. Where are we deviating from, honestly, God's design, right? I don't think God ever intended for us to live in our houses by ourselves, attached to a social media screen, criticizing and judging every post that gets posted.

27:47
Right? And yet, it makes sense then if we're doing that and that is our lifestyle that we're finding misery on the other end of it. Right. And so it's tough when we look at these like broader cultural aspects of mental health and why things are the way they are. That it is messy and it still is theologically congruent. Mm hmm. Right? When we walk away from what God's design is for our lives, for our relationships, for our communication.

28:16
It's no wonder we struggle with rising rates of mental illness. That is also not to say, though, that if you struggle with mental illness, you are engaging in a lifestyle that's incongruent with mental wellness. Ooh, very good, very good. That's correct. Right? Good, good, good, good. That, I think that's the other factor is for folks who are by and large healthy, who have healthy family systems, who do all of the right things and then suddenly struggle.

28:42
with mental health that seems to come out of nowhere, that they can't make sense of, that doesn't seem to fit the facts, that it isn't somehow just as real or just as intensely experienced, and it doesn't mean a lack of spirituality or a lack of faith. Absolutely. That you can be a faith-filled believer who struggles with mental illness. That you can be a strong Christian.

29:11
who has depression, that you can have absolute faith and trust in God and still feel anxiety. I think those truths are pieces that we don't want to address because we don't have the answer of why. And that's hard. It's hard to be those strong believer who now has to express vulnerability or weakness. And yet.

29:40
We know that we don't get wholeness until we are with our Creator someday. Right? Like... Just somehow think that because you're a Christian now, you are exempt. Right. From the realities of mental health. For whatever reason, we think it's okay to be a Christian and to break our ankles, or to have an issue related to our physiological, physical body, and yet when we consider our mental emotional well-being...

30:07
Somehow that that is exempt from it and that's just not the case That that Christianity and a faith in Christ does not mean we are exempt from the sufferings or difficulties of this world and that includes our mental emotional sufferings and challenges, too but I think the beautiful part about it to be the mature believer who now struggles with mental illness is Time and time again throughout biblical history

30:33
God uses those who have been broken, who have experienced brokenness, for such big biblical story narratives, because there is this ability to be relatable and compassionate and lean in.

30:51
in a different way, right? And I think that that is something that is a beautiful aspect of struggling with mental health or mental wellness, is when you've been there yourself, you tend to judge it a lot less. When you've been there yourself, you tend to recognize when you need to reach out to somebody else struggling, because you wish that you were seen in those moments. Right? And I think of the verse, I think it's in 1 Corinthians that talks about, we've been comforted so that we can comfort others. And I think,

31:21
that verse so beautifully like holds space for mental health. That yes, we are going to struggle at times, right? And a large number of individuals in our church body will struggle, right? Like the current rates are one in three teens are struggling with a mental disorder. And at some point one in four adults will struggle with depression at some point in their lives. And those rates speak to the fact that like we will face.

31:51
mental health in some capacity. So even if folks are listening to this message and they themselves have not yet had a, you know, an instance of depression, anxiety, or any other number of mental health disorders, they will be affected by it at some point in their lives. I can confidently say that. And so the ability to hold space, the ability to know how to comfort others, the ability to lean in, I think is one of those reasons why the conversation can't be avoided.

32:18
I so appreciate it. I think it's the willingness to acknowledge as Christian people part of our calling Is to know and understand the complexity of this particular conversation so that we can serve and love others well Yeah, and that we can be attentive to our own selves, right? I want to be clear about like you just said many of us, myself included, right? We all struggle with mental health in different ways and at different times in our lives. And so it's it's to acknowledge

32:44
We as a church body and specifically as Christians, we need to embrace this. We need to be willing to dive into this aspect of our life and our faith. We don't compartmentalize our faith. We don't hold back from God aspects of our lives. We don't hold back parts of who we are from God. God gets it all. Jesus, the call to be a disciple from Jesus Christ is total and complete. And that means that we need to submit to Him our paradigms around mental, emotional, well-being.

33:14
in mental health. And so that will equip us to love our neighbor well and to love ourselves well and to be more in sync with how God designed and purposed us. And so a lot of this conversation is almost like an equipping. A lot of this conversation is a measure of equipping and rediscovering a Christian paradigm around mental health.

33:38
that is more true to the biblical witness and is, if we are to parse apart from something, it's to leave behind some of the stigma, leave behind some of the historical conversation pieces that have been less helpful, and lean more fully into, like you said, scientific research, the evidence-based practice, the biblical narrative in witnesses, and to see our theological lens.

34:03
not as a hindrance or as incompatible, but is actually moving in sync with. And I think, you know, the Bible talks about like bringing our brokenness into the light, right? Like that's referenced in certain ways throughout different stories, parables, scriptures, the entire idea of our brokenness coming to light. And I think this is just another one of those ways that when we can bring that aspect of ourselves, right?

34:33
of mental wellness to the light. Like that's when we actually have the opportunity to do something with it, right? Versus just accepting it and letting it live there. And so I think there is this aspect to me that this conversation is also an invitation for folks to bring it to the light, but hopefully with a lot less fear of what the response might be. Yeah, there's an air of vulnerability that comes from acknowledging this conversation.

35:03
that we have a place in it. There's vulnerability. And we generally don't like to be vulnerable as a society, as a culture, as people, because we could get hurt when we expose the reality of our own faults and our failures and our frailties. Even if, like for example, mental health is not something even that we always incur of our own decisions. We can be victims in what has been done unto us in trauma situations, in biological predispositions, a whole bunch of different things.

35:33
vulnerability That comes with saying yeah, this is part of my story. This is part of who I am and how will that be received? by other people and even by God and that vulnerability and fear is real in the sense that Right, like we live in an entire very judgmental culture, right, and so those fears of bringing this very vulnerable aspect of ourselves to people who are also broken

36:00
That fear is valid and there needs to be a certain wisdom in choosing who do I approach and who is a safe space to be able to share this aspect of myself, right? Because the very unfortunate reality is if we wear our mental illness like a billboard and we are open to the world, we will be faced with judgment and we will be faced with limitations. The beauty is we won't be faced with that with Jesus, right? That when we bring this vulnerability to God, right? Like we will be met with compassion.

36:29
we will be met with forgiveness and with wholeness, right? Not necessarily in the ways that we might think, but that God will meet us in those moments. And so I think that vulnerability piece is hard because there is a need to balance wisdom in letting that piece of ourselves known to the world who may not always be light to reveal to, versus letting that part be known before God, who is light.

36:59
Right. I'll go so far as to say too, even we should not make assumptions that even all Christians, even though we are called to this, we are called to sensitivity, we are called to grace, we are called to a right understanding of these things, not even all Christians have the right level of maturity to embrace and navigate the conversation with that same leisure of grace. And so there is a measure of discernment. Where are the appropriate spaces? Who are the appropriate people that we

37:29
begin the work of restoration with at those deeper levels. And I think that's a really important piece to recognize too. There has even been research done. For instance, there's several qualitative research studies out there that have analyzed sermons and Christian self-help books for mental health and a number of other platforms within the Christian community. And these qualitative studies have by and large

37:54
reflected the fact that there has been a very damaging messages and theologies coming from Christian leaders. And that's heartbreaking and that's hard. And so it is important to validate that not all Christian responses will be created equally. And on the flip side of it, not all therapy is created equally. Yes. Right. So

38:22
I really encourage folks that have maybe been hurt by a Christian's response or even by a therapist's response in the past to keep looking, right? To keep fighting to find the individual that will walk alongside them. That you might have to try one or two or three or maybe even four therapists before you find the one that's the right fit, right? If you've shared with a Christian brother or sister that and it was met with judgment or hurt, right? To continue to pray.

38:52
about who else might be a great fit. And that's where I am so proud of our church body and our care team. And right, like our care team is filled with individuals who strive so hard to create a safe space that is judgment free, right? And so for those individuals who've been met with judgment with Christians before, right? Like I love that we have a place that is designated for like people that are safe to disclose to, to be vulnerable with.

39:21
I think that's so important, but I do want to validate that if you have shared and been vulnerable With a Christian or with a therapist or with your primary doctor Yeah, and you have not gotten what you need or maybe have even been hurt to not shy away right to lean in instead One of the other pieces that this is making me think of is the multifaceted nature of health mental health and well-being that

39:51
There's not a silver bullet, but that in so many ways, it's gotta be community, it's gotta be therapeutic one-on-one environments, it's gotta be potentially medication. It's not just one specific piece of life that fixes, quote unquote, now we're good. It's an ever enduring process of being attentive to our mental health and wellbeing in a variety of disciplines and areas. Yeah.

40:19
Which is why we are the body, right? Not one person is the body. We are the body, right? Because there is no way for any one person to meet our needs forever, right? I think of that in marriage, right? Like, if you expect your partner in marriage to meet every single one of your needs from a social, emotional, like, physical, whatever aspect, they can't, right? Christ gave us a body of people, right? And the same is true with mental health. That...

40:48
one therapist, one psychiatrist, one pastor that you meet with for counseling, one brother or sister that you pray with, any one of those individuals may not be able to meet your total need because God has asked us to be the body. Rather, the most ideal approach, and this is supported within like psychology literature as well, is when we take a multifaceted approach and aim to connect with multiple different sources of help.

41:19
I really love because I think that really I love what you just said there because how it also brings a measure of freedom to to each individual particularly as we strive to love ourselves and love others that is to say We don't need to be a there. I don't need to be a therapist you you are tremendously skilled gifted And I don't need to be a pastor It's exactly right and and so you know if there's if there's like I'm thinking like a family member out there Who is trying to love their their family member?

41:49
struggling with depression or struggling with anxiety, struggling with some aspect of mental health, they don't need to be a therapist. They need to be a good loving family member. Now that doesn't mean they need to be ignorant of therapeutic importance and to be advocating for it, but it doesn't mean, I mean, I think it like our trained care.

42:11
ministers. What I love about our training is that they're particularly trained and instructed in their role. Yeah. And they don't need to be more than they are. And and we can be genuinely the part of the body where we fit. And there's beauty in that. And when we experience the multifaceted nature...

42:30
It gives us freedom to find our fit in the body. Yeah. We don't need to all be therapists. We don't need to all be pastors. We don't need to all be these things. What we do have is a common calling to best love one another and connect each other to those other aspects of the body and support one another in our mental health. Absolutely.

42:57
Can we explore a little bit? What do you want to explore more? I've always got stuff that you've worked really hard and you have such a background in the different models. I think that would be really helpful on a grander scale to break open if you'd be open with that. Yeah. You'd be open to talking about it. Yeah, so kind of like those four theological models. Yeah. So.

43:18
So you have done a specific measure of study and attentiveness, bringing together your theology and your therapeutic skill sets, specifically exploring how those pieces relate and where are their theological models and therapeutic models and how these things interrelate. Can you tell us about some of your research related to

43:40
how therapy and theology correspond and relate. Yeah, absolutely. What are the predominant models out there? Yeah, so as nerdy as I am in the world of wanting to integrate my own faith as a Christian and my profession as a therapist, there is an entire body of Christian psychologists that are out there that have done some amazing work in partnership with theologians to really understand what are the theological models behind.

44:06
mental health, as well as the different evidence-based models that are out there, and what are the theologies behind each of these evidence-based models of care. And so one of them that's really critical to draw in is understanding what are the theologies of mental health. There are four main theological models that are pretty broadly accepted within both the world of theology and the world of psychology, and three of them to be fully candid.

44:34
are pretty damaging and yet are relatively pervasive. So the first theological model that's out there looks at

44:45
the experience of mental illness as a result of an individual sin, right? That they must have done something and therefore then that's why they're struggling with mental illness, right? And again, each of these theological models exists because of maybe one or two biblical stories or narratives that you could maybe draw those conclusions from, but miss the holistic picture. So, for instance, that that

45:11
mental illness as a result of individual sin, I think of like David and Bathsheba.

45:15
Right that like yes following that specific moment of sin for david right. He experienced some pretty intense Emotionality and that's where this model comes from right? Um, so an individual sin is one model another model. Sorry. Can I interrupt just just the acknowledgement too of how Interestingly enough you have to take the totality of it because of how clearly these models the damaging ones get debunked ironically By scripture as well. I mean, I'm thinking like jesus with the tower of uh, san lomore

45:45
tower falling and people ask him like well was this a consequence of their sin did they sin and so because of that the tower fell on him and Jesus like yeah no that's not how this works and so I just appreciate that we can take out of context or narrowly focus and we miss the full breath as scripture always interprets scripture and when we have to take into the far a whole breadth of scripture and so that's a lot of the ways in which we get these narrow focus

46:15
So I'm sorry. Which is why it's so important to read your Bible holistically. Yes. Right? The other model that we look at is that you struggle with mental illness out of a lack of faith. Yeah. Right? A lack of... You're not praying enough. You don't trust enough. You doubt too much. Believe more and you will suddenly be healed. And again, there is some...

46:35
aspects to it, right? That like when we walk away from God, when we don't lean into his truths, we can feel uncertain and shaken. And there is also folks that did not struggle with their faith or their spirituality, that struggled with their mental health, right? And those occurrences are just as prevalent. The other model that we kind of look at is that

47:02
mental illness occurs as a result of demon possession or the spiritual influences, right? And there are occurrences in the Bible, for instance, the woman where Jesus cast the demons out of her and the pigs ran off the cliff, right? Some of those instances are what is cited. However, not all the biblical characters are that we identify as struggling with mental health.

47:28
are demon possessed. Right? Correct. And that those two things just aren't consistently congruent in scripture. So again, isolated story that when you draw your entire theology from it is a very dangerous perspective. The fourth, which is what we tend to espouse to as Christ Church, I tend to espouse to as a therapist, is that.

47:49
mental illness occurs as a result of the brokenness of humanity, right? That we live in a broken world, we are a broken people, and that brokenness is the same cause of our own physiological medical illnesses as much as it is our emotional and mental illnesses.

48:11
We are a broken people in a broken world. And that is where it comes from. The reason why it's so important to really lean into and understand what model do I espouse to and what model do I choose to espouse to is it affects our interactions with other people. Right. Right? The first three models tend to elicit intense judgment or shame or oversimplifications or really unhelpful comments like pray more.

48:35
Right? Like it results in this like hierarchy of sorts of right? Like, well, this person must be less faithful because they struggle. Right. And so then we end up creating this hierarchy and a hierarchy of broken people is not a healthy thing. Right. Like you think that would be self-evidence, right? Like you would you would think I don't I don't want to be put in a hierarchy of my brokenness. Right. Amen. Absolutely. And thankfully, God doesn't do that either. Right. Which is why he says things like one one aspect of

49:05
brokenness, right? Like one sin is no greater than any other sin. We are broken. And so there is such a danger to taking on those first three, those three theological models in a way that has the potential to cause immense harm within our body. And when I say the body, like our church body, our larger interactions with the community, I don't want to be the person that chooses to perpetuate.

49:32
those false theologies or stigma or anything along those lines. Whereas if we take on that brokenness kind of model on a broader base, we tend to respond in a way that...

49:45
is a lot more like Jesus, right? And so I think those four theological models matter a lot. I so appreciate, we've been fortunate to have this conversation before in some ways because of how rich and how aligned we are. I mean, this is one of the things that we had to do is to find our sense of alignment in regards to our theological models. And that's one of the reasons why it's so wonderful to talk with you is because we do find in that four theological model, the idea of a broken is that the very fabric of creation is broken, right? And that sin is not just a series of decisions,

50:15
is a complex reality of brokenness. And as a result of sin, it's not to limit to say decisions don't matter, that's not what we're saying either, there are still consequences to our decisions, absolutely. But that the very fabric of creation is fragmented and broken in such a way, and it's evident everywhere. It's just evident everywhere, it's prevalent. And so, I so appreciate that fourth model because of the way it brings space for us to acknowledge the work of Christ. It's so foundational to that, right?

50:45
didn't acknowledge that brokenness there would not need be a need for Christ. That's exactly right. Right? If it was because of one individual's sin or if it was because of one individual's faithlessness. Yes. Right? Like then just fix that.

50:58
Yeah, there wouldn't be a need for Christ. You eliminate the gospel in a lot of ways when you depreciate that fourth model. Yeah. And so, you know, just in listening to you talk to us, thinking about the second model, which has to do with like faith, just prayed away, have more faith type stuff. And I can't help but being drawn personally in my own story of moments where I have witnessed those experiences. I remember vividly and can tell stories about working as a chaplain in a hospital setting

51:28
who I would like to think are well-meaning Christians would come and

51:33
espouse that theological model and I remember having to come in afterwards and bring healing and restoration to people who had been told they didn't have enough faith that if they just had enough faith they would be healed from their mind and their bodies would just get healed and when they're told you just don't have enough faith that leaves them in this desk. And that's not to minimize miracles, right? Very good. Like there absolutely are individuals who have experienced miraculous

52:03
your prayer in any kind of capacity. Yes. And even Jesus did not always just miraculously heal. True. Sometimes he sent them. Like, go to this place, right? Or like, go experience. This kind only comes out from prayer. Right? Like when Paul was made blind on the road to Damascus, he was given clear instructions then in order to come to know Christ and experience his sight, right? Like, that it's not always just this like,

52:29
One and done miraculous healing. Sometimes it comes with instructions to seek out other resources, to seek out other places, or people, or help in order to find healing. To experience the person of the work of God.

52:40
Christ as opposed to put it into a formulaic magic. And I think this is something that people sometimes confuse is they actually confuse faith and magic. That is to say, if I pray this way, these are to be the results. In which case, humanity is the one who is in control. Humanity is the one through whom the power is being initiated. Humanity is the one who is controlling the supernatural as opposed to being subservient to and being simply made available for the supernatural to be in control, for God and Christ to be in control.

53:10
control. We get into this idea that we can somehow through our magical prayers heal someone in that way and it doesn't work like that and it does work in terms of miracles. We see that and so it's this again the complexity of some of these dual realities at the same time. Can we explore because I know this is a very popular and also difficult

53:33
conversation for Christians to have, specifically conversation around demons and demon possession. That you know, I think the fourth model gives space as well in regards to the third model and demon possession. Yes. The fourth model gives space for spiritual realities and supernatural things to be real and part of our world without shoehorning that to the natural, well that must be what it is. Again, the dialectical reality of the both and.

54:03
that is not attributed to demon possession. And yet I can't help finding in my own, this is my own disposition to say that.

54:11
What more vulnerable person to the work and the activity of evil in this world than someone who's struggling mentally and emotionally? Absolutely. That, you know, we find... If I'm a demon, that's easy pickings. Someone who is already being kicked and down. I think at how the demons interacted with Jesus when he was in his 40 days of fasting, right? Yeah. That they sat next to him and whispered these like... Yes! Fake truths, right? Like these scriptures out of context that sound great and... Oh, manipulation.

54:41
Why? Because he was at a vulnerable point. Yes. Right? That absolutely is. In a world of brokenness, when there is the presence of demons, right? Yep. Yep. That there is a spiritual component to it, and it is a very real factor that somebody who is at a most vulnerable point makes an easy target for spiritual warfare. Correct. Correct. And so this is where our Christian principles of...

55:05
spiritual warfare are just as important, right? And this is also where therapeutic skills can line with that, right? When we talk about like meditating on a specific verse, when we talk about that biblically, well that translates to really good mindfulness practices within the therapeutic world, right? Like we there are these therapeutic skills and practices that can be so protective against spiritual warfare because it also accounts for the fact that it is a broken world. The danger being that we go to one end

55:35
end of the extreme or the other to simply say there are no demons, it's all just mental health, or the other end of the spectrum, which is to say it's all just demons and there is no mental health. That both of these are damaging and again don't take into account the full breadth of scripture and what we find in the biblical narrative. It's just not accurate to what we actually see theologically. It challenges us to not take the easy way out and to see the world as more complex.

56:06
I am, you are so great. You are just so awesome. I so appreciate you. Genuinely, thank you. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you for your advocacy of the conversation around mental health at Christchurch. Thank you for all your work at Christchurch, your faith, your sisterhood as a fellow journeyman, this fellow Christian sister in faith. Thank you for your friendship and for this rich conversation. There's, it's just wonderful. Thank you. It's truly been a privilege and an honor. So, I'm glad to do it. Good.

56:35
Thanks so much for joining us for this valuable conversation about mental health and faith. Whether you're a health professional, a church leader, or you're someone who lives with mental health concerns or loves someone who does, we hope that this has been beneficial for you. We also encourage you to watch or listen to the other conversations in this limited series and find what else might be edifying for your practice, your church, and your lives.

57:03
We also know that this is ultimately an incomplete conversation. And so we invite you to continue the work of de-stigmatizing, to pursue your own healthiness, and help create an authentic, faithful space in your life and the lives of others that we can talk about mental health. If you're a church leader or a mental health professional and wish to have a more robust conversation specifically with Christ Church and how we're choosing to navigate this conversation, we'd love to talk with you, share with what we've learned. If you're an individual interested in more,

57:33
for our mental health workshops and skills trainings led by mental health professionals. Also, you can see the Christian teachings connected to these videos by watching our Peace of Mind sermon series. Thank you.