A Conversation with Dr. Lee Hildebrand

Lee Hildebrand has been privileged to be in mental health for many decades with a practice in Mequon, Wisconsin called Lakeshore Psychology Services. He employs a psychiatrist, several psychologists, and several social workers and they are all Christians. He recently added an amazing life coach, and their focus is to provide quality care to people in the community. The second part of his vision is to value his employees and have them walk into a work home while experiencing value.

Want to hear more? Pull up the Christ Church Mequon Podcast for our four-part Peace of Mind message series from January 2024. These sermons introduce the idea of mental health and faith working together, teach us about our own health, explore ways to deal with the health of others, and concludes with some ideas for next steps as you continue toward improved mental health.
https://podcast.christchurchmequon.org

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https://christchurchmequon.org

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:01 Interview
• 44:09 Closing

Transcript

00:00
Hi everyone, I'm Pastor Andrew, one of the pastors here at Christ Church. And I'm Amy Eberman, the Care Director here on staff. We're so excited to bring you these amazing conversations that we've had the privilege to have with Christian mental health professionals, talking about mental and emotional health, how it intersects with our faith, and why it's important in our lives. Even though mental health is an aspect of our overall health,

00:26
As humans historically, mental health and mental wellness has not always been talked about in a healthy and constructive way in a church environment. Sadly, some people have been hurt by these damaging and unhelpful messages. Our goal with these conversations then is to provide a safe space to learn, destigmatize, and bring awareness to this important aspect of our health, all with a God-honoring Christian paradigm. We see quickly when we do this that therapy and theology do go hand in hand.

00:55
We hope that this is as helpful and life-giving for you as it has been for us.

01:01
Hi there, it's Pastor Andrew and I have the privilege and honor of sitting today and having a conversation, a meaningful conversation, a sacred conversation with a friend, a mentor and an expert in his field. I have the privilege of spending time with Dr. Lee Hildebrand who is someone who is renowned in his skill sets and his ability to connect and work with people to really bring about Christ's healing in people's lives, particularly in the area of mental health and well-being. And so we're going to have a conversation today.

01:30
an opportunity to explore particularly what does it mean in some of the aspects of looking at mental health, coming together with faith. One of the wonderful things about Dr. Lee is that he is a faithful Christian man and has a wonderful faith story of his own.

01:42
and he's able to serve and love people with a paradigm of faith and a worldview of acknowledging Jesus Christ while also being an expert in his field. And so it's my privilege to spend time today with him and have this conversation. So Dr. Lee, can you tell us just how about introduce yourself for the beginning part and tell us a little bit about yourself, your practice, and what brought you to this point in time with your practice? Absolutely. Well, Pastor Andrew, it's great to be here with you. I'm so excited that Christ Church is doing this series. I think it's crucial.

02:12
And I've been privileged to be in mental health for many decades. So I run my practice here in Mequon, Wisconsin, Lakeshore Psychology Services. I have a psychiatrist, several psychologists, and several social workers. And in this, the beautiful thing about it is they are all Christians. And I'm thankful for that. We also have a life coach that we just added who is amazing. And our focus is really to provide

02:42
quality care to people in the community. And then secondly, part of my vision is my people in our culture is to value them and have them walk into a work home and experience value. As we're looking at the topic that we're talking about today, when I think about what are some of the most important things that I would love the privilege to say to people in Christendom, in your congregation. Yes, please.

03:12
One of those things is to recognize that shame is one of the biggest enemies, I believe, of Christians today. Shame, a sense of, I'm not enough, I don't quite measure up, a sense of loss in that, at times dying on the vine, and then at times getting into a pattern of either service or work or extending themselves to try to be this perfect servant.

03:42
while neglecting themselves spiritually, emotionally, physically and personally. I believe that a lot of people have an appropriate knowledge of Christ's grace and how much he loves them. But experientially, the lower brain part, our hearts as the Bible talks about, they're lacking that at times.

04:11
empty, they feel lost, they feel like if people only knew what it feels like to be me. And my encouragement to them today would be this, that God loves them deeply. And that self-care is not selfishness. Pastor Andrew, self-care is stewardship.

04:38
You know, I think about that in terms of what Jesus said in Mark 3. One of the Pharisees was trying to trip him up and said, Hey, Teacher, what are the two greatest commandments? And Christ astutely, the first one of course, is to love your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And then his second part of that, he said secondly, and he's also pulling from Leviticus,

05:08
1918, which is, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Pastor Andrew, I believe that we sometimes make the mistake of assuming that we have to do everything to serve and sacrifice and not pay any attention to ourselves or the grace that God has for us. I submit to you there's a premise in that verse, in what Jesus is saying, that's crucial.

05:35
And that is his assumption is you shall love your neighbor as yourself. That means that it is what God wants for us to receive His grace and His love in regard to loving ourselves, in regard to receiving His love. And that's where the stewardship comes. He also said, put my kingdom first.

06:04
Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added unto you." He speaks in those verses of the sparrows of the field. I take care of the sparrows of the field. Am I not going to take care of you? I submit to you that sometimes we lose the essence of this message, and we focus on the self-sacrifice, and we focus on that aspect of it.

06:30
and we lose a sense of the way God wants to bless us in our lives and help us feel the peace that passes all understanding. And I believe the peace that passes all understanding is not only the sense that He's enough in terms of our internal salvation, it's also a sense that He is enough in terms of our needs and who we are today.

06:57
beautifully said, beautifully said. So I am thoroughly intrigued by this idea of stewardship because I think that resonates so deeply with, it broadens our understanding of what stewardship means and helps for those of us who ascribe to the Christian tradition. Stewardship obviously is a big part of our life and the teachings of Christ. I think in addition to that what you're doing is bringing the idea of our health and our well-being, our mental, emotional, our physical, our spiritual health and well-being under the umbrella of

07:26
gifts, we, I mean to use your word choice before, we receive these things and therefore it is our almost responsibilities that it could, okay, word choice to use to steward them well. And there are good ways to do that and perhaps poor ways, ways that are less constructive and helpful. And it makes me think of where the Apostle Paul talks about like our bodies being a temple as an example, temple of the Holy Spirit.

07:54
And so what I'm hearing from you is that this idea of stewarding, we have to steward the temple, we have to steward our bodies, we have to steward our minds, and we have to steward the relationship even between our mind and our hearts. That there are some things that are within the cognitive realm and then there are other things within the emotional and so forth. And so the interplay of some of those pieces. Can you just speak more on stewardship holistically?

08:24
indicates that our body is his temple. He talks about our hearts in his word. He talks about our minds. Oftentimes people think of stewardship mainly as financial. And that's obviously a crucial, important part of this as well. But how do we steward our time? How do we steward our bodies? How do we steward our emotions? What are those needs that we have in terms of what I would call true belonging?

08:55
accepted as we are and to be loved as we are by other people. We, most of us get that from very few people at that most deep level. To be seen as we are, to be, can you just share those again? To be seen as we are, to be accepted as we are.

09:16
and to be loved as we are with our insecurities, our vulnerabilities. There's a few people in our lives and mainly Christ sees all. He gives us this gift of other people as part of our stewardship that can be a witness to our true self.

09:35
and that sheds the light of Christ in terms of shame and can dissipate shame. Okay so part of the gift that we receive as Christian people is relationships and the people around us and so Christ speaks to people through people. This is something we talk about at Christ Church is that God works through people in order to reach us and so one of the things you're describing is God working through important relationships in our

10:05
are seen, that we do belong, that we are loved as we are. And that becomes very much so a part of the Christian witness. And what it means to have faith in Christ is to receive those type of gifts of grace. OK, very good. When you think about it when you travel on an airplane, talking about stewardship and talking about self-care is not selfishness, it's stewardship. You have the flight attendant get up and start to talk about safety.

10:35
procedures and what does she say? When the oxygen mask falls down put your own oxygen mask on first so then therefore you can help others

10:47
And sometimes we forget that in Christendom. And so many times I'll meet with lay people, Christian workers, even pastors, that are so busy trying to put everybody's masks on for them, that they neglect the stewardship that Christ has of themselves. Oh, that's so good. Yeah, I mean, especially in the type of condensed, demanding culture we live in holistically,

11:17
and then you layer on top of that some of our Christian calling to serve thy neighbor. At times we can sacrifice our own needs and delay our own needs and well-being in an attempt to serve others. And there's some healthy boundaries. What I'm hearing is that there are some really healthy, good boundaries that imply good stewardship of what God's given us. Yes, pastor, and it's like quipping.

11:43
When we're equipping, when we're allowing God to equip us in terms of those life disciplines, spiritually, emotionally, physically, then we're going to be more effective when God has had us in the gap as we're serving others. Like this morning, before we even had an opportunity to have our discussion this morning. Yeah. I spent time in the Word, time in prayer. Yeah. Went to the gym, got after it.

12:11
Did some cold water therapy, hit the hot tub. And so as we proceed through our day, that helps me, those disciplines help me in terms of stewardship and being equipped to pour out.

12:24
allowing the Spirit of God to pour out in terms of anything that we're doing in a given day. I so love and appreciate the way in which you readily acknowledge the interplay between you know our mental emotional health, our physical health and our spiritual health that we are to use the fancy framework theologically of Trinitarian that God made us in the image of his own self and so because we are made in his image in the same way we have different aspects to our own person

12:54
is out of whack when our mental emotional well-being is not being stewarded or appropriately attended to, that will impact the other areas. When our physical health is not being attended to, that can impact our mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being. Absolutely. And then lastly, when we are spiritually deficient and spiritually struggling, there's a likelihood that there's going to have a correlating effect in the other areas as well. That's kind of some of the things I'm hearing about too. Just speak more about how those things all

13:24
three aspects relate to one another? In addition to God's Word which we can refer to and we have, there's lots of research that talks a lot about the mind body connection, the spirit mind body connection. There's such an intricate interplay.

13:42
And research is indicating that there is a lot of physical aspects to healing. In fact, biblically, we have the concept of laying on with hands in prayer. So part of that is when we're taking care of the vessel, our bodies were also taking care of the emotions and the spirit and vice versa.

14:07
And we sometimes in our Western thought can compartmentalize things into more the practical and tactical and rational and forget about taking care of our whole selves in terms of our bodies and our emotions and those things. And Christ had a holistic view of what it meant with, and these things are added unto you.

14:35
He cares about all the aspects of who we are. Every hair that's upon our head. Yeah, when we seek first the kingdom, all these things will be added unto you, includes all of who you are. Not just a segment of who you are or a compartmentalized piece of who you are, but holistically who you are. That's beautifully said, beautifully said, okay. I really believe that if most of us had a true sense,

15:05
beyond our intellect spiritually and emotionally a sense of how much God loves us. We'd be completely overwhelmed. In fact, God's given me a phrase in some of my work and that is I say to people often, and let's say I'm sitting there with a woman for instance, you are a beautiful daughter of God inside and outside.

15:32
And you would be amazed with both men and women how that phrase in terms of how it captures the word beautiful inside and outside, the word daughter, because we are sons and we are daughters of the King resonates with people in terms of feeling that at a true spiritual and heartfelt level.

15:57
It's almost as though we have to give ourselves permission to be open to that reality, to allow it to sink in and be vulnerable. I mean, what you're describing to me sounds like a very vulnerable space. Absolutely. Welcoming that reality into our lives and allowing it to define us. Absolutely. To become part of our identity, that I am a beloved child, a beautiful child of the living God. I've really observed in my work that it's much easier.

16:27
a lot of times for people to love or do acts of service to others than it is to receive love and vulnerability. That's one of the most courageous things that we can do both with Christ and with other people, the arms and legs that Christ brings us to minister to us as well. So it's not only the Christian calling of pouring oneself out for others, but also

16:56
welcoming what Christ sends to us, welcoming the people, welcoming the healthiness and the right good teaching instruction, the disciplines that keep us healthy, welcoming the affirmation and the validation and the things that are spoken to us and over us both in Scripture as well as for example through professionals and particularly people of faith and what they speak to us and over us being vulnerable and open to receiving that.

17:26
You know what makes me think about Pastor Andrew? The woman that saw Jesus in a crowd and she had the difficulty with bleeding. Yes, yes. And she kind of worked her way through the crowd and just reached out and just touched His cloak. And she had that faith that if I could just touch His cloak, that there would be healing, there would be love and there would be healing.

17:51
So I think part of our journey in terms of our sanctification and our stewardship process as Christians is to continue to find ways that we can experience the multitude of God's love in terms of touching His cloak through our faith and experiencing His Holy Spirit in real, tangible, emotional, spiritual, physical ways.

18:21
beautifully said That we're constantly pursuing in faith the opportunity to receive The power of healing that the scripture talks about that emanates from Christ. Yes, and that we reach out To receive that we pursue that one of the things I appreciate particularly about that story. She sought Jesus out and chased him down in the crowd and

18:51
purposefully and intentionally stretched out her hand in faith believing and trusting that she would receive in return. And he said it wasn't my cloak that healed you it was your faith.

19:10
a willingness to look beyond oneself to the person of Christ to find a measure of healing and restoration in faith. Beautiful, beautiful. I know there are a variety of other things, there are so many things that we could talk about. What are some of the other things that you would love to share, just with the broader Christian church, things that come to your mind and heart as a mental health professional?

19:37
What would you love to share with the Christian Church at large? Yes. I think another thing that would is helpful for us to really understand is that, and I'll reference a famous book No Man is an Island by Thomas Merton, famous Catholic monk. Terrific book. Basically you get a gist of the book just by the title. I think it's important for us in regard to our faith walk.

20:06
and in regards to mental health, the challenges that we have, the insecurities, could be depression, could be anxiety, could be a whole host of things, trauma, to recognize that we don't have to walk this path alone. Sometimes people feel like there could be a stigma or could make them look weak.

20:30
to reach out for help and get people on their team to assist them with these things. Something I often say to people is, no matter how wise or experienced that we are, including both of us, Pastor Andrew, there's something that we can't do. And that is we can't see the back of our own necks.

20:53
So this is why I myself have a life coach that helps me in my journey in addition to mentors and things of that nature. Because we need that witness or that ambassador that can see the things and help us in our vulnerabilities with the things that we can't completely see. And so if I could encourage anything, it would be for people to not be afraid.

21:19
to reach out to you, to reach out to Christian psychologists, to reach out to others. It can help them when they encounter these challenges. So they can build a team around them. Often times in our culture we can assume that we need to be the action hero, if you will.

21:39
takes on everything ourselves and that it's weakness to reach out for others for help. In fact, I would say it's the opposite, that it's courage. And Christ did say, let my strength be made perfect in your weakness.

22:00
So I really believe that's something that God seeks for us to get, is that fellowship of the saints, and being able to be on the real, real with one another, and the right, safe and appropriate people.

22:15
I so appreciate, I think it resonates deeply with me, the idea that there is the reality of our own weakness and vulnerability and that I am a finite creature. I don't have it all together. I am broken and messy. And so because of that, it makes it that much more important for me to look beyond and outside of myself for that help. When I am weak, ironically, when I allow the reality of that weakness to be accepted, then I am strong because I turn to Christ, I turn to other Christian brothers and sisters, I

22:45
who have my back, I love that, you're absolutely right. And then you think about my place in the body of Christ and you realize I'm part of something bigger than myself and that I'm not alone, I'm not an island unto myself. And that you can surround yourself with other wise discerning people, particularly Christian brothers and sisters who can strengthen you and speak into your life to really bring about healing, restoration and the best aspects of what could be possible in your life.

23:15
Love that. That is so true. And you know what Pastor Andrew, I think a lot of times we can get baited in our culture to comparing our true selves with our challenges, our vulnerabilities and our weaknesses with the external social media, impression management, exterior of other people and make the assumption that most people are doing way better than we are. Right.

23:43
In my work, I've had the privilege to see under the hood in lots of lives. I do executive coaching as well, so across a whole span of people, working with pastors and leaders. And, you know, the real truth is we all have our challenges and struggles. And hopefully that can be an encouragement to people to not make that assumption and not compare their most vulnerable selves with other people's.

24:12
external impression management. I so appreciate that yeah today's society has such a higher level of comparison trap to it in that we are constantly broadcasting the highlight reel of our life on our social media platforms and so we begin to think and assume that that must be how a person's life is typified normal for them to be in Hawaii with a waterfall behind them and that's how life really is. Right. And then all of a sudden the damage ironically that that does in terms of our own self-image and how we see and perceive our

24:42
It creates a gap of reality between who we are and what we perceive in others that just becomes insurmountable And so there's a there's a measure of I think even accountability I'm hearing towards being careful of that paradigm being careful of what it means what it looks like to compare yourself to others and To what degree do we acquiesce to the cultural pressures out there instead of allowing the Christian gospel?

25:10
to shape us, the Christian message in God's word to shape us, which readily acknowledges we are weak and Christ has come to save, restore, and welcome us even so. That we can be broken and we can be real. It's part of the beauty. I still love it. It's part of the beauty of the Christian church. Absolutely. What it means to be brothers and sisters is we can be authentic and true, our true selves, but without a sense of stigma or judgment to it, without that sense of I don't measure up.

25:40
backdrop or our jobs, we can just be Christian people together. That is a true marker of a healthy church, a healthy community, a healthy family.

25:53
that we're able to connect in within that and find our safe and appropriate people that can nurture us. It doesn't mean that we're all gonna be going up to the pulpit or the altar and sharing everything in terms of every aspect of our life. That's not what we're talking about here, right? It's having that freedom and knowing some avenues with those people that we can trust and know our...

26:19
most vulnerable cells, or most fearful, or most insecure, or most struggling. I mean there's almost a sense of exhortation towards maturity. To have a sense of more mature mindset in regards to who am I surrounding myself with that's good, right, healthy, and appropriate, where I can have that level of vulnerability and openness with them. That makes me think of a lot of, like for our example, our small groups can provide those spaces for people in a healthy, constructive environment.

26:49
Christian mentors and people. I mean you mentioned for example like life coaches and things like that. If you're wondering who my mentor is, it's right here. If you're wondering. I'm honored for it. Christian people who can speak into your life profoundly and be that mentor and role model and watch your back and help you realize that one, you have gaps, you have brokenness in your life and that is actually an okay thing. It's how you choose to respond with it. I appreciate our brotherhood over the years.

27:19
It's been amazing to be able to be who we are. In a very real and authentic way. Absolutely. Wonderful. OK. You know, there's a whole range of other things I'd love to ask you. Anything else that you would love to address in regards to the wider Christian church?

27:38
I would say another thing would be that oftentimes we can find ourselves in an era of despair and particularly our teens coming out of COVID. Yes. It was incredibly difficult for them, our children and our teens in particular. You know in fact suicide rates from 08, a huge study that was done from 2008 to 2018 indicated that suicides had doubled for 13 and 14 year olds as an example.

28:08
during that era. And so I think it's key that we in our families, in our community, that we continue to support our teens and our young people in terms of their faith. And there's research that has shown that a close connection with faith is

28:32
a protector against this kind of despair. I mean it seems like common sense to those of us that are believers in Christ. And so I think the importance there is for us to continue to model to one another, to demonstrate to one another, and as parents, a continuing live, real relationship with Christ, even behind closed doors, you know, beyond just

29:02
talking about real things, many of the things that we talked about earlier in terms of stewardship and supporting one another, and having our teens know that God loves them, having them experience that hope, as opposed to the despair that they can start to feel when they feel alone. Social media contributes to that, culture can contribute to that.

29:28
secular humanism can contribute to that to our teens. So that's dear and near upon my heart as well.

29:35
that resonates so deeply with the context specifically of Christ Church in that we've specifically both last year and again this year have made intentional efforts to create space for conversations around mental health with our youth at our Impact Youth Program on Sunday nights. And we've had some incredible voices of great wisdom and great insight and professionalism come in to help guide a thoughtful conversation related to how we address mental health not only as adults,

30:05
adult stewarding, caring for, and coming alongside our youth. So for example, I love when you talk about parents. Yes, parents need to be modeling and participating in conversations of faith, in conversations of health and well-being with their kids. They need to be having conversations of spiritual well-being, of mental emotional well-being, of physical well-being with their kids. Part of the aspect of stewarding oneself is, I think, the call to steward one's family.

30:35
way that we're called to steward our own health and well-being. Parents are called to steward the health and well-being of their children and kids to raise them. And what I'm hearing from you is that we modeled that. We do that at home, far beyond a one hour at church on Sundays. That's so true. One of our sayings at Christ Church is it's all about Sunday because Monday matters. And so what we do and think about and talk about on Sunday should inform and shape all the other

31:05
So similarly, conversations of faith and conversations of mental, emotional health and wellbeing should be part of what parents are engaging their youth with, their kids, on an ongoing basis. Absolutely. Our dogs, our doorways, and our children are the biggest indicators of where our faith is at behind closed doors. You know, are we, you know, the raging lunatic that's, you know, taking our kids to church

31:35
indicating faith and hope and Christ-likeness, and then screaming at them at home, or other types of things. Thank you. Thanks for your attentiveness to the reality of our youth.

31:48
They're so important, they're so beautiful. Yeah. And they're under an onslaught in our culture. Yes. In terms of their bodies, their person, their very being. And their faith in Christ is being shown in culture to be antiquated, to be just not cool. Right. And it's our job to continue to help them really see the reality.

32:18
which is Christ is everything. And they can have that peace that passes all understanding even amidst some of the storms of their development. It will protect them and gird them in the storm.

32:35
love at the idea that just as we as adults, for those of us who are adults, strive for that peace, so also the peace that surpasses all understanding is intended for our youth as they navigate storms as well. In a culture that is rapidly accelerating in terms of change, there is the unchanging love of Jesus Christ which is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. God's good and gracious word, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

33:05
the people around us change, as situations and circumstances change, here's something that doesn't change, and that's Christ and the gospel from generation to generation. And that's something we can give to our youth. That's something we are called to give to our youth for their well-being. Love it. Absolutely. Because some of these questions are so palpable, so incredibly important, you know, some of the other questions that we sit down and ask ourselves are...

33:30
What do you wish you could tell someone struggling with mental health about faith and mental health? And then again another question would be what do you wish you could tell someone who loves someone struggling with mental health? Specifically about faith and mental health. Can you just speak to some of those questions? Yeah for somebody that's struggling with mental health issues the number one thing that I would want them to really hear is that you are not alone and per

33:57
this sense of the comparisons that we can often do with other people.

34:04
people can feel like they're the only one. Whether it be depression, anxiety, addictions, sexual sins, all kinds of challenges, they can make the assumption that they're the only one. And it's just simply not true. Statistics bear this out. We all have our challenges with mental health. And so for them to not feel that they're alone, and I've had the privilege to

34:34
areas of people's lives and I can assure them that there are real struggles across the board from leadership on down because we are humans and we feel things so I think it's important that they do not compare their most vulnerable self to

34:56
what they see as the strengths of others on the outside. And that they're able to have grace in terms of themselves and be open and know that it's okay to reach out and get help. To reach out to leadership through Christchurch, to reach out to Christian psychologists, counselors, social workers, life coaches. Admittedly, they're sometimes kind of hard to find in our culture today. I'm thankful and grateful

35:26
whole team is Christ based and can assist with that in terms of that and there are others out there as well as you know that can meet them where they're at in terms of that. And then for those that are...

35:42
recognizing that they have a child, a teen, a family member that's really struggling with some mental health issues. I think the most important key is to listen to them. To really hear and understanding where they're coming from. One of the tendencies that we can sometimes have, Pastor Andrew, is to feel like we need to help and then try to fix and try to offer advice right away.

36:12
context is it shuts somebody down because they feel like they can't just let a problem sit out on the table and just give it breath and and have that other person like Job's entourage be present and listen. To pray for them and then also to look at offering support.

36:41
and then encouraging them to get the right kind of people on their team. Not being afraid to seek those people out that have the expertise that can help them address these issues and they can be very serious.

37:00
getting the right people on your team, the right people. And if you're someone who has someone that you know, a loved one, a close friend, you could be an advocate for saying, hey, let's get the right people on your team. And not presupposing that they themselves are an expert or that I myself am an expert in the field, but how can I bring the person that I love into proximity of those who are best equipped, best trained to really try to do that?

37:30
truly love and assist them in a way that is going to move them towards health and well-being.

37:34
that our loved one might find a measure of restoration. I so love when you write, so often in our culture, we have the fix it tendencies. We wanna get in there, we wanna fix the problem and move on. Unsolicited advice syndrome. Yes, right, that's exactly right. Oh, I had that exact problem. Yeah, it's just not what we do. And let me tell you exactly what I did. What you do. And people just start to just feel it. It just shuts them down. Yeah.

38:04
I love it when people have, they're well-meaning, right? So many times I think there's a well-meaning disposition and people don't necessarily know how to help best or help well. And so you get the tropes and you get the unhelpful aspects of ironic love, right? Yes.

38:24
and people love as best they can. And that's part of the reason why we have to have these conversations is to help unveil that there are, in fact, more helpful things and less helpful things. So it's less helpful to say, hey, I've been right where you are. I know exactly what you're going through. This is the five easy steps to fix your life now. Far more helpful to give breathing space, to listen.

38:52
and to advocate for getting someone into the right and appropriate space for significant health and significant transformation, getting the right people on their team. Absolutely. I would say, you know, if we were sitting with your congregation right now and they're wondering, they're struggling with something and they're wondering, gosh, am I the only one? I would simply say just look to your left and then look to your right.

39:18
and the person on your left and your right have their own struggles too. Different kinds, it can vary, but we all have our struggles. It's one of the things I so appreciate is I think you've helped share with us today, but also more broadly I think in my own life too that you know mental health and well-being is this spectrum in which we all are on and there are just varying degrees to which we have to

39:48
genetics play into this, things like our context and our stress levels play into this, life events play into this. It's not a question of whether or not you have mental health and well-being, it's a question of what are you doing in relation to it, because everybody has the stewardship and the calling and responsibility to steward well their mental health and well-being. It's not just, oh those with a definitive diagnosis and a medical paradigm. Absolutely. Yeah.

40:18
I have to say Pastor Andrew, I have tons of respect for how you approach that in your life as a leader.

40:26
You've always struck me as we've become very close over the years as somebody that is open to being real and with the right safe and appropriate people in the right context. Correct, correct. And I have the greatest amount of respect for that because I think in whatever aspect of leadership we have, whether it's a father or a mother, it's a youth leader, it's a leader like myself or yourself, that it's just important that we help others understand

40:56
We're human too and we're all in this journey together. I think dipping back to what you were talking about before and acknowledging that we're not alone. When we acknowledge that everybody has a measure of health and well-being and something to contribute to mental health and the conversation of mental health, it creates space for acknowledging you're not alone. Everybody is in this seeking to learn and grow. So thanks for acknowledging that everybody's in this. You're not alone.

41:26
in this. And when we're trying to help those that are having a particular struggle, I think it's important that we offer support, we offer help, and then we also don't own the outcomes. Ooh. And I think that's where some of the...

41:43
pressure comes in trying to fix with other people is kind of owning the outcomes that it's our responsibility to make sure that it's all going to work out. A lot of times if we fertilize the soil by helping those that we love have opportunities to have the support to have the team to support them in prayer, to support them in our love, that God can do those things that we can't do for ourselves. Beautiful.

42:12
What a joy to be able to sit with you. You are so thoughtful. You have passion for what you do and passion for people. And you do that from a Christian lens. I am so grateful for it. Just as we're wrapping up and as we're thinking about our time together, what other things come to your mind or heart that you would love to be able to share with Christian people or people seeking to better learn about the intersection of faith and mental health?

42:39
I would say continue to seek after God. In other words, trust God. Be present in your life. Don't let the worries of tomorrow steal the today. Be present in your life. Be present in your body. Be present as you commune with the Spirit of God. And take those action steps that God has for you today.

43:08
In fact, that's a model that I have that comes up on my calendar every day. Trust God, be present, and take the action steps. Beautiful. Trust God, be present, take the action steps. And when we do that, we will live more fully into who God wants us to be as healthy as we can be. Fabulous.

43:35
Thank you for the privilege of your conversation. Thank you so much, Pastor Andrew. I'm so proud of what you're doing at Christchurch and I'm really proud of your congregation and the many wonderful things that are happening at Christchurch.

43:48
What a joy to sit with Dr. Lee today. Thank you for being part of the conversation as well. For those of you who are listening and having a chance to be part of this conversation, these are meaningful conversations and thank you for welcoming Dr. Lee, myself, into your own life and experience and conversation around faith and mental health. Thanks so much for joining us for this valuable conversation about mental health and faith. Whether you're a health professional, a church leader,

44:17
or you're someone who lives with mental health concerns or loves someone who does. We hope that this has been beneficial for you. We also encourage you to watch or listen to the other conversations in this limited series and find what else might be edifying for your practice, your church, and your lives.

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We also know that this is ultimately an incomplete conversation. And so we invite you to continue the work of destigmatizing, to pursue your own healthiness, and help create an authentic, faithful space in your life and the lives of others where we can talk about mental health. If you're a church leader or a mental health professional and wish to have a more robust conversation specifically with Christchurch and how we're choosing to navigate this conversation, we'd love to talk with you, share with what we've learned.

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If you're an individual interested in more, consider joining us for our mental health workshops and skills trainings led by mental health professionals. Also, you can see the Christian teachings connected to these videos by watching our Peace of Mind sermon series. Thank you.

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you